Ep 2: Aesthetics and Icons with Blak Douglas

Host Blue Lucine (00:01):

We The City is recorded on Gadigal land. I pay my respects to the traditional custodians, the elders past present, and emerging.

 

Tegan Nicholls (00:11):

Just a heads up this episode contains some adult language.

 

Host Blue Lucine (00:25):

Art. Activism. Identity. Diving deep with one artist a week, we meet the individuals who use their art to trigger change in the City of Sydney. Who are they? And what's their story. Stick around to find out on We The City.

 

Host Blue Lucine (00:51):

Hi, I'm Blue Lucine. And in today's episode of We, The City I speak with artist Blak Douglas, a proud Dhungatti man.Blak Douglas is a contemporary artist who works across painting installation and sculpture. He won the coveted Archibald prize in 2022 with his portrait of Karla Dickens. His work explores political and social injustice through bright colours, iconic figures, and witty sardonic titles. It has captivated audiences around the world for decades. Blak talks about pushing the boundaries in the art world and the lessons he's learned along the way. Here's Blak.

 

Host Blue Lucine (01:31):

Thanks for joining me Blak. How you going?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (01:33):

I'm going pretty well. I'm well fed. I'm not banging a desk. and I'm going to be speaking fluently on Gadigal Land.

 

Host Blue Lucine (01:45):

I just wanted to start off by saying I've admired your work for a long time now, and I've seen kind of how it's engaged with different parts of the city. Cuz I think earlier in your career you were living out at Ashfield then in Redfern, but I just wanted to kind of take our listeners back to earlier years. And I was wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about where you grew up.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (02:11):

I was born in Blacktown twin gig, old country and spent the first years trotting around Prospect and then the new housing estate. The new way of living was built in south Penrith, Western Sydney. And that was the most affordable place for my blue collar working class parents. So we fled out there by the time I was seven years of age and I was raised on top of a hill in South Penrith. Uh, went on to University of Western Sydney there later on and also began painting there.

 

Host Blue Lucine (02:50):

And uh, what kind of kid were you Blak?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (02:54):

A little shit. Yeah. Yeah, an only child. And I thought the world revolved around me and that only became exacerbated when I pursued art because all artists think that the world revolves around them and um, it didn't help me particularly for some time, but uh, thankfully I've learned to deal with the fact that the world doesn't revolve around me now.

 

Host Blue Lucine (03:21):

I think that ego would probably be quite helpful though for a lot of artists. I mean, you'd need that belief to start painting and continue doing it. So,

 

Guest Blak Douglas (03:32):

You know, I just felt like rattling off half a dozen artists right now who could probably be dealt a little bit of a measure of, um, humble pie, but I shan't for the sake of defamation.

 

Host Blue Lucine (03:46):

Well, today's about you anyway. Yes. So I'd much prefer to, just to talk about your own humble pie.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (03:52):

Yes you are correct. Because, uh, if you do watch the, and this might be a little adventurous thing for people to observe, but if you do watch the formative years of an artist that who is evolving then, and particularly in this era of social media and 'selfiness', mm-hmm , you have to really pump everything you've got into yourself to project yourself to the ether and hope that you lure some kind of representation. If you don't already get that representation coming out of art school.

 

Host Blue Lucine (04:29):

Yeah. I feel like, uh, it's shifted from the days where someone could just hide in the corner and be discovered and someone kind of do all the work for them. It's it's much more about kind of pushing your own brand. Mm.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (04:41):

The advantage which I predicted moving to Sydney to Gadigal from Darug Penrith was that I saw that the kind of messages that I was projecting in my work was gonna be shortlived in a community that is primarily Liberal governed and cottage lane art industry mm-hmm . So I got outta there as quick as I could realising that, um, you need to be near the pulse for art and that is Sydney, of course. And so I followed the bright lights of art into Sydney, and that's what I impress on so many young aspiring artists today, that the unfortunate thing is that you need to show your face at openings.

 

Host Blue Lucine (05:28):

When you say kind of the bright lights of art, I'm curious, how did art come into your life? Were you always drawing as a kid?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (05:35):

I was always drawing as a kid. My mother's two brothers were famed, what they called coach painters of the time, which later was called sign writing when signs were made by hand mm-hmm and nowadays you'll pay exorbitant prices for that to happen in the advent of vinyl cut lettering off a computer. Uh, so my uncle, the Brown Brothers were then in the late seventies through the eighties were the most famed sign-writers on this continent to the point where, uh, when people had lots of money in the eighties, they - speed boats were being sent from California. Wow. Yeah. To, to my grandmother's house on Blacktown road, Prospect, and in would come these, you know, behemoth vessels and they would painstakingly paint their artistry. So I grew up watching them do that. Then I watch my closest cousin begin to follow in the same footsteps. And so there was always something artistic and it was always an attraction for me to be at my grandmother's and watch this stuff happening. And so I suspect that technically in my artistic prowess is, uh, come through the genealogy from that side of the family.

 

Host Blue Lucine (06:54):

Well, they do talk a lot about, um, epigenetics and how it can impact different skills that you've got. I mean, the precision in your kind of practice is, is incredible. The line work that you do, um, it's hyper focus. So I wonder if some of that trickled down

 

Guest Blak Douglas (07:11):

Oh, absolutely did. Because when you look at the evolution of my stuff, my, particularly my template that is for background for my landscape and he's now I use masking tape to achieve my seven sisters bands of colour in the sky, seven bands of colours. And, um, what's really interesting is to note that my first ever job was, uh, assisting a car spray painter at Toyota in Penrith and I had to mask up. So you had to mask up the bits where you didn't want to get spray on them. And I really got off on that. Like masking is its own art form and it's sadly unrecognised as an art form. So it's amazing that some 40 years or 35 years down the track, uh, it's still in an integral part of my, the way I make the formative stages of my paintings.

 

Host Blue Lucine (08:18):

It was like, uh, an accidental apprenticeship for you.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (08:21):

pretty much. And, um, I have to throw in a plug for 3m because not so long ago when I realized I was using so much masking tape, mm-hmm , I could really deal with some freebies

 

Host Blue Lucine (08:34):

Uhhuh . So they're your sponsors.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (08:35):

And I emailed 3m and took some couple of months for them to come back. And I became the first artist that they sponsored inverted commas, and it's been, um, so helpful that I don't discard the tape. Uh, it's such a valuable asset in my creation and I rather make giant tape balls. And so I'm working on one at the moment that's been going for two years. I have had one previously I that I sadly discarded, but I'm going to keep going with this tape ball until it's too heavy to lift onto the back of my Ute. And then I plan to exhibit it. Uh, why, why shouldn't we create this, um, sculptural piece and, and not give it its own light of day.

 

Host Blue Lucine (09:30):

Okay. That I gotta see. That's pretty impressive. Before you went to art school, I'm, I'm curious, what kind of role, um, being Aboriginal played in your childhood?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (09:44):

That's a good question. I was blessed with the physical appearance of not having to identify and not being targeted, but that all changed when other students saw my dad drop me off at school. And for the rest of the day, um, you were slandered and, you know, ridiculed and, um, told that your dad was an Abbo and the most embarrassing time was watching something in history or science. Most likely it was in science when, um, you chanced upon some archival ethnographic video, it was taking in the turn of the century, in the desert of, of some Pintubi men dancing with these amazing feathered hats and whatnot. And, um, some fuckwit would just point and say, "oh, there's your dad, Hilly". And, um, so, uh, there were several other Aboriginal students in my school. And, um, it was just still a time when you pretended that you weren't.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (10:57):

So, uh, it's amazing having an opportunity down the track, which many of my Bogan mates in the, in the Western suburbs still, uh, harass me about. And they say, when we knew you as a kid in school, you were white, but then something happened. And, um, and that was a fork in the road at University when the Auntie that was looking after us, uh, actually accosted me and said, you've reached a fork in the road, so you need to choose which way you go. Wow. And, um, dad could never really understand that. And when he started seeing my artwork, he'd raised an eyebrows and would say, I, I don't understand why you're digging up this stuff. Like, you know, he thought that he'd successfully made it through most of his life, um, not having to, but it was always the case. It was always black Bob or, you know, other slightly derogatory references to, to dad in the time where Italians were called Dagos and Chinese were called something else.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (12:06):

And, and it was just, you just took it on the chin, but it did hurt. And then, and I still remember in year four in primary school, Metella Road, public school in Toongabbie, this white haired, blue eyed, young lad, like year four, we're talking. And, and he called me an Abbo and I was so proud that I learned to, uh, modernise my weaponry mm-hmm or I used a, um, an impromptu modern measure of attack. And that was, um, if anybody is old enough to remember the, the teacher always had the pencil sharpen on the desk, mm-hmm on mounted on yeah.

 

Host Blue Lucine (12:47):

Right at the front. Mm-hmm

 

Guest Blak Douglas (12:48):

Yeah. And used to use these grey, like heavy lead pencils. And they were like heavy in, um, um, in the, the grade of the pencil and they were quite large in diameter really. And so I, um, I just very kind of nonchalantly got up and walked down to the sharpener and sharpened my pencil so sharp came back and sat down and just stabbed him in the chin and the lead broke off into his chin.

 

Host Blue Lucine (13:21):

Oh, wow.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (13:21):

And I distinctly remember that primary school teacher, uh, upending my desk and, and swinging me around the room, um, then letting me go and then saying, get to the principal's office.

 

Host Blue Lucine (13:33):

Wow.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (13:33):

And when I think back now, that's, uh, what I'm telling students in schools today, when I'm talking about addressing the issue, the abhorrent issues of being the highest incarcerated rate on the planet, uh, per capita, that has always happened to the black man. Yeah. And so there's always been some kind of challenge and the white man gets off Scott free and the black man gets, um,

 

Host Blue Lucine (13:58):

The punishment.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (14:00):

Yeah. And so there was my very first ever introduction. What would transpire or evolve into watching my dad later on fight his way out of just about every pub that he drank in at the end of the night, because white fellas would get charged up and wanna punch on with a black guy. And so dad would be out in a lane way, cleaning up these white fellas, and then the police would turn up and throw the black guy into the paddy wagon.

 

Host Blue Lucine (14:33):

You and your dad have grown up in such different Australia's in a way. Um, I mean, it's no wonder that you have different points of view in terms of what, you know, being Aboriginal should mean to you. Um, when you were saying just before about, you know, he's saying, why bring this up and, you know, it's a completely different way of coming at it for you, for you. It's how, what did that kind of, I think you graduated art school 1994 around then.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (15:02):

Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

 

Host Blue Lucine (15:02):

And during that time you really started exploring what your heritage meant. Was that difficult kind of emotionally, what was the, what did that feel like at the time?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (15:14):

That was a period where you thought you controlled the world, you know, like around 25, you're bullet proof, um, everything's about you and nothing else really matters. So I was just like bolting forth, like you're saying bolt literally and in my life. And it wasn't until many years later that the reality of what had happened to our family hit home. And so there was, you know, 90, 94 was the graduation year from UWS. And, um, and then I was just like completely wide-eyed and attracted to the next opportunity to become involved in First Nations cultures. And that arrived with a massive golden pot at the end of the rainbow. And that was getting employed as the graphic designer for Indigenous Australians exhibition at the Australian museum. And you couldn't have asked for a more, uh, whirlwind introduction to First Nations peoples of this continent. It was just so diverse and completely blew me away. And it was like, um, I just kept getting fuelled every time. I, I couldn't wait to get in there to see what would happen next at work. And when I came out of there after 15 month contract, I thought I was just it. And, um, I, I felt I could walk into any Aboriginal community on this continent and I just know my way and I feel my way. And I tried it, I did try it afterwards and, um, turns out it worked

 

Host Blue Lucine (16:57):

Oh, cool.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (16:58):

Yeah. Northeast Arnhem Land, Papunya, Perth, and just went into different communities and said, I'm Adam Hill as I was then. And, um, I'm, um, I'm Koori from the east coast. And I don't really even know who my family actually are, but my dad's a black fella . So that felt, uh, like I was a superhero. I was a reincarnated, super bull.

 

Host Blue Lucine (17:25):

 

Host Blue Lucine (17:34):

I wanna kind of talk about moving to Redfern. And I'm curious how that landscape, how being in that area impacted your practice.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (17:44):

I moved to Redfern roughly 12 years ago, primarily because there I was forging my way as a political artist, uh, an artist propagating, um, social justice issues through paintings.

 

Host Blue Lucine (18:02):

Yeah. Cuz politics has always been running through your work

 

Guest Blak Douglas (18:04):

Always. And there's no brainer not to move there because politics were still so rife in the community. And when you wanted to hear the latest, you'd just go to the Block and, um, there'd either be some kind of protest happening later. There'd be the Tent Embassy set up. And it was so cool to be an ear to the ground in that community while didn't dad raise his eyebrows eyebrows nearly went off the top of his head. when I decided to move to Redfern really. And, um, and I just loved it, but you know what? It was still rough. It was still a rough place to live and it was still questionable for somebody like me with my shade of skin, cuz I wasn't known to the community, like the Block was a hard place to walk through. That's why it's so hard to look at it now.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (18:57):

Yeah. It's become this like house of cards kind of um, Dico orgy, uh, of foe architecture. And so that's, what's so hurtful for black fellas that were from Redfern and the three generations that missed out on housing there to walk through there. Now it's not an Aboriginal precinct that's it's like, honestly, wake up. That place hasn't felt black since well, literally since certain entities turned off the water and the gas to the remnant terrace houses there. So however I got, I, I milked at everything and I, I just loved it. I couldn't get enough of it. And I still think of, um, the, the spiritual gatekeeper who used to stand at the top of the Block and that was Uncle Ninganah and Ninganah bless him as he's deceased for many years now. Um, he was just this most entertaining. He was like the Bennelong of the Block, literally anybody who drove, who tried to come into that Block, he would greet them. He would just, um, address them and say, you know, welcome them and all of that and so much so that he would then appointed the unofficial gatekeeper of the Block. So when, you know, Prince Harry lobbed up, he'd have to speak to Ninganah and the Governor General or whatever events were happening there. And wow. It was such special times

 

Host Blue Lucine (20:21):

You painted the community center mural in Redfern. What did that mean to you? Getting to do that at the time

 

Guest Blak Douglas (20:27):

When I painted that mural, it was literally on the tail end of the hearted hardcore, um, element of the Block. So when they built that community center and they launched that community center and they had already raised both sides of terrace houses on the center, part of the block and it left a big grassy patch. And so they used to set up stages in the middle of that and put up marquee up and have everyone there. The day they launched that Marie Bashir was the Governor General at that time. And it's one of those amazing things that white fellows are so good at pulling the wool over black fella's eyes, uh, in the sense that in government and, and that is that, you know, we want to, um, we want to help black fellas effectively be homogenised into the CBD community by creating a Redfern community center that is for the Redfern community.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (21:32):

And while this, uh, launch was taking place, there's an Uncle Eric who was sitting up the back and he's long gone from the Block, but he was a long term resident in that Block and he's, um, sitting up the black after black and he's yelling at them as they're speaking, even the Governor General saying, um, it's not a black thing, it's a fucking white thing. Now he's just, and people saying, oh, uncle, you know, tone it down. He goes, no. He goes, the kids are being told to get out of the center because the kids are running a muck with this new, amazing building. And they just, and prior to that, building being built, those kids could run a muck anywhere they wanted within that four hectare precinct because it was Aboriginal land. And, um, if you're mucked up too much, you'd be dealt the wrath of the elders.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (22:23):

But now the homogenising began with the Redfern community center. And I just saw those elders shaking their heads continually. When all of a sudden you got Tai Chi and all of these things taking place. I, what the fuck is that's not Aboriginal. Yeah. That's not Aboriginal. And so it was a, it was a valid point, you know, but, and when I was painting that mural, the reason why I stylised the clouds and the mural into bomber vans, which are, um, police paddy wagons mm-hmm because they were driving up and down every five minutes. Wow. They were always looking for someone wow. Or just impressing their presence, you know? And there were people shooting up in the doorway opposite as I was painting. And, uh, it was just an amazing rapid crossover transition of, for that place.

 

Host Blue Lucine (23:10):

Now you mentioned the, the Paddy wagons, um, kind of brought into your art as symbolism. That's something you can find in, in all your works. There's, there's so many layers for me in terms of the different meanings. You've got kind of the punch in the face messages that are really bold and, and right there for you to see. And then there's, um, more subtle things that kind of reoccur in a lot of your, your works. You mentioned the, the seven sisters before. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and why it's a part of your practice?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (23:46):

There was something always eating away inside, and that was my grandmother mm-hmm and that was her parents and the parents beyond that. And for however far, you want to go back and now 8,000 year existence in Southwest Rocks in Kempsey. And, um, that's the thing. When, when you talk about dealing with, uh, generational trauma in Aboriginal people, um, it doesn't matter if your offspring is got red hair, green eyes and freckles, but their great, great grandparent was black, well they're gonna be carrying that, no doubt unforeseen macabre existence, or demise of that grandparent, that great grandparent and that, um, unconsciously, uh, channels through in people's spirit. So, um, back to what I was saying earlier about the, the spearing with the pencil and the black man fighting his way outta the pub, when you know that there's no, there's, there's Snowflake's chance in hell of you getting a fair trial in this country, you may as well just punch someone in the face.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (25:00):

And so it feels good, feels good. Anytime anybody's called a name to punch somebody in the face and, um, you are going to get fined or you're gonna get a, a record, or you might even go to jail depending on your previous punching in the face encounters. And that's why our incarceration rate is so high. So that trauma is carrying through and it's gonna, it's gonna react. It's gonna take something to react or to, uh, enact, trigger that trauma and depends on the individual, how the individual can handle themselves. So for me, uh, what I try and impress on, particularly on the odd occasion, if I go inside and work with the brothers in, in jail or, or the kids in the detention centers, you know, try and take it out on the canvas, don't put it on the wall. Cause they're looking for excuse to lock you up. If you tag a wall, you're gonna get locked up or at least harassed by the cops. So, um, um, I feel my responsibility now coming full circle as a, as an artist is to try and pave the way for, for those kids to have a, a voice and paint what they wanna paint. It's, uh, taken a, a long time to, to make a dent in this establishment, but it's slowly but surely happening. And I've certainly tapped into key figures in art nowadays that non-indigenous key figures that are willing to help me make that happen.

 

Host Blue Lucine (26:27):

And so is a part of, um, what you put in your paintings sometimes just for you as well. Not always for the audience, if there's subtleties that other people might not pick up on.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (26:39):

I generally kind of hone in on something topical of in the now mm-hmm and something. And it's always fuelled by a farcical government, uh, circus act. That is a continuation of, um, those clowns that are running this place.

 

Host Blue Lucine (26:58):

You've got some really iconic pieces like the Katter Grill, Bob Katter, and the cattle grill work. One of your most recent works, um, Truism Australia. Uh, I wanted to talk about that just briefly, actually. So that was a piece where you were responding to a piece of archive. Is that correct? Could you just tell me a little bit about that and, and describe the photograph

 

Guest Blak Douglas (27:24):

State Archives of New South Wales had recruited me for a group exhibition, uh, as well. It was artist and poets that was staged at the Museum of Sydney and they, um, initially they sent out a whole swag of archival paintings of Sydney, sorry, New South Wales, archival photographs. And we were to respond. We were to pick something and respond mm-hmm to those images. And thankfully, um, as soon as I saw the image you're talking about, which was the image of, um, three of my brethren of my kin standing on the railway station at Kempsey.

 

Host Blue Lucine (28:07):

And how, how old are they in that picture?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (28:08):

They, they were like, um, maybe six down to three, the youngest one, perhaps. And, um, there's the snapshot of the stolen generation. There was the train, the station master who was, uh, pointing down the platform to where they had to go. And there was, um, as I later learned the female head of the welfare board. And so she was escorting my distant cousins to their so-called new life, which was freshly being stolen from their mother's nest and put on a station and sent off to whatever took place in their lives.

 

Host Blue Lucine (28:53):

And you found out something, um, about the youngest boy in that photo?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (28:59):

Uh, yeah, direct relative and also, um, a member of the family of the, the first superstar artist of Kempsey, which is Robert Campbell Jr. It was just, I was just gobsmacked that I, when I found out this information and, and much of that came to me through social media when I posted that up on Instagram and all these messages started coming in and, and then I dug fur- dug deeper into it and found out that, um, they were actually related.

 

Host Blue Lucine (29:30):

So did you discover that he was, I think an uncle. Yeah. Did you discover that after you'd finished the painting?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (29:39):

Yes. Wow.

 

Host Blue Lucine (29:40):

So you painted the whole thing. Yeah. And then discovered that the little boy you were in fact painting one of them.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (29:46):

Yeah. To be honest, I didn't actually know that that was Kempsey railway station. Um, I thought it was central. Yeah. And then to modify the background. So the whole thing was painted with, um, the illusion of a new life and the illusion being the great landmarks of Gadigal country now being the, the Opera House, the Harbour Bridge and Sydney tower. And so they all kind of produced as a, just as white outline. So it was this, um, kind of spiritual Disneyland Fantasia world that those kids are being marched into.

 

Host Blue Lucine (30:30):

And you had some, um, some play on words with the, with Luna park, didn't you some messaging in there? What did you, what did you rename that?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (30:38):

Oh, Lunatics yeah. Yeah. So I changed, yeah. Luna, Luna park to Lunatics and, um, and tourism, Australia is a play on tourism Australia. Yeah. It's a honorable, honorable thing to have them acquire the piece and then the initial commission. And it's all part of, um, finding the good people that are, that do exist within the establishment that wanna make the change.

 

Host Blue Lucine (31:04):

I mean, you, you're talking about this photograph. It is a, an exact snapshot right. Of, of the stolen generation and it's so fresh. It's so recent it's and it's quite incredible that you discovered that about your family kind of after being involved in this process.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (31:22):

Yeah. Um, it's what had taken place prior to, uh, orchestrating that composition was that, um, I developed a relationship with the state archives and when dad was still alive. So we're talking some decade ago, they had contacted me because I had a documentary made about my emerging into art. So that was, uh, it was made around 2004 documentary titled Between the lines, the initiation of Adam Hill. That got a lot of airplay. It was, uh, regularly played on NITV though. Uh, the archives saw that documentary and contacted me and said that they'd found some archival photographs of my grandmother. And so I took dad down. They give you a morning tea. They used to be down at The Rocks and went down to the archives there and sat down. And there were these six photographs of my grandmother that dad never knew existed. Wow. Yeah.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (32:29):

It was pretty astonishing. And to see your dad tear up in the, in the context, things is incredibly, uh, emotive thing. And then, uh, and dad passed. Um, but that, that, that fuelled my, my frustration even more to want to call out because we're talking, if, if non-Indigenous Australians can appreciate, and some might have had some experience, similar experiences, but in the scheme of that, we're now in an era where, uh, a welcome to country is, um, omnipresent and mandatory in most places as is NAIDOC celebrations in the first week of July and flag raising and all of this stuff. It's incredibly impacting to know that we're trying to make this change, but the government has a legislature that says that somebody like me is not entitled to a native title claim. So somebody like me that is, is two generations removed from a grandmother who was picked up by the black government car from Jerseyville and Kempsey and sent miles away to Cootamundra Girls home, to serve as a slave for white station owners.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (33:52):

I can't, according to the federal government's laws claim for an allotment of lands from where my grandmother was taken from. And that's because that native title law says that it's only available to the tribal people. So it's people that can prove continued connection ceremonially to their land. The clever device was for the Southeast region in the height of colonisation. And the White Australia policy was to break down the family mm-hmm and obviously move the people on from their Homeland and then, um, jobs done jobs done. And I, you can only apply for, um, stolen generation claims if you are the person that was stolen or the next of kin that's the federal government law. So what I'm saying is that this is just bullshit and how dare they expect me to pay my taxes, to pay my tolls on now, privately owned roads on Aboriginal land and pay my parking fines yet you haven't compensated my family in any way for what you did to my grandmother. That's the fire that's burning in the belly. And that's why it's so easy to wake up and paint something in contrast to many dealers who say, can't you paint something "nice and dotty".

 

Host Blue Lucine (35:28):

I think that's one of the things I really admire. And I know a lot of other people admire about your work is that there's no niceties. You, you, you punch in the face with your, with your art. One thing that isn't celebrated enough is just tenacity and not being afraid to say what you're really thinking, because there's so much these days try not to hurt people's feelings. And really, you just need to say the truth. You also incorporate dance and music, uh, into, into those spaces. Can you tell me a little bit about why that's important and what that kind of does for you as well in your practice?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (36:09):

I wanted to have some kind of adherence to ceremonial practice. And if that is simple as getting any number of dancers that I know to come and perform at my opening, uh, then I just always thought that that's what should be done by and large. I've been exhibiting for 25 years now on other people's land. And, um, the least I can do is have, is try to please everybody, uh, in attendance. And often there are elders in attendance and everybody loves to see some kind of ceremonial dance practice in the flesh. So I just thought that was part of what I should be doing. You know, I remember when I was learning to play, Didgeridoo and getting my first invited gigs, it was such a proud moment. So it's my responsibility to nurture and, and promote the younger generation who dance better than I do or than I ever did.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (37:13):

So come and dance at my opening and we have a modern day corroboree and I've always tried to, um, to make that happen to the, to more recently at Nanda/Hobbs in December with my first reentry show in about 10 years with the commercial gallery, but now times have changed as such that I got the incredibly vivacious Felicia Foxx to come and strut her stuff at my openings. So it's a times have changed. I did have a Torres Strait island mob come, but for my Aboriginal component, I wanted to drag queen. And so I'll continue to do that if possible, if I can still afford her,

 

Host Blue Lucine (37:51):

just mentioning your grandmother before it it's, it's such a kind of incredible and complex journey that you've been on in your practice, your identity, coming to terms with things, especially with, at times clashing with your dad's point of view, have you ever thought about what your grandmother would feel if she was watching you make your political statements, you know, explore your kind of heritage and your identity without, you know, threats and things like that. How do you think that'll make her feel?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (38:26):

I have wondered that, but I also wonder about how she was in the epicenter of that era. Mm-hmm where you said you were Indian.

 

Host Blue Lucine (38:35):

Yeah. Anything but Aboriginal

 

Guest Blak Douglas (38:37):

Anything but Aboriginal. Yeah. And she was fair skinned as well. So she had that opportunity to easily escape and live, uh, an evolving lifestyle of assimilation. And it's her mother or her grandfather that I think most about mm-hmm because her mother and grandfather, uh, her grandmother and grandfather were, were the ones that stepped out of the Bush that stepped out of a tribal lifestyle. And that's phenomenal to think about that. And then the ones before that absolute unmolested dunghutti tribal people, that's a phenomenal thing to think about. So I do think that perhaps it's that mob that, uh, if ever I think about watering down my message, like I had to do to get a painting into the national gallery of Australia some years ago, I might feel a little, a polite poke of a spearhead in my, in my back in the small of my back. And just get that little reminder that we're not here to fuck spiders.

 

Host Blue Lucine (39:45):

Yeah. I say that too, but I say I'm not here to pick flowers but, uh,

 

Guest Blak Douglas (39:51):

That's cuz I'm from Penrith, right.

 

Host Blue Lucine (39:53):

um, I was gonna ask you, have you ever painted that image?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (39:58):

Fucking spiders?

 

Host Blue Lucine (40:00):

No, definitely not that one. Um, the, your, your, um, ancestors, you know, emerging from the Bush, has that ever been something?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (40:08):

No, not really. You know, when the listening audience look up my stuff, if they're not always already familiar with my stuff, you'll see a distinct pattern and a template in the way I paint things. And, and that template always came about from, um, influences from various great Western painters that I admired. And one particularly being Jeffrey Smart. And I always enjoyed how Jeffrey Smart had some kind of landscape happening. And then, you know, let's think to that great image of his, with the, um, the trumpet player in the field or the park, those, um, pastoral coloured flats way in the distance, in the background. I just loved how he juxtaposed some banality into his compositions. And so that was definitely a big influence on how I now stick something right in the foreground to make a, a comment that's most often sitting within a landscape that's primarily influenced by Papanya and the, the sleeping woman mountain range, the MacDonnell Rangers from my visit to Papanya.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (41:22):

When you encounter that landscape for the first time, it's tattooed on your, not only your mind, but your psych and it became tattooed on my psych and why, the reason why I invented my template landscapes was because at the time I was being challenged by the, uh, overt plagiarism of the dot style painting from that community to the point where all of the other Aboriginal artists surrounding me, when I began painting, were painting this kind of stuff on boomerangs, terracotta pots, didgeridoos, whatever. And it's a common tendency because it's the easiest thing to sell. And that's what I alarm the kids in school today, particularly the Koori kids when I, um, beg them to do, to produce any kind of form of artwork that doesn't have contained dots because it becomes so bastardised and so, so cliche that now we have the most passe dot style graphic ending up on every NRL Jersey that they celebrate Indigenous First Nations round or whatever, you know, it's not helping contemporary Aboriginal art evolve and it's not helping anyone really. It's just keeping people in another form of suppression in this case, it's artistic suppression.

 

Host Blue Lucine (42:52):

Mm. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like you developed your style quite quickly and, and just embellished it. And what I see now in your canvases is they're just getting bigger and bigger. That they're huge. is that what's happening. You just need more space.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (43:09):

Uh, you definitely need more space. There's, um, there's a reason for that. And, and, you know, you, you dawn upon the realisation at some point in early stages of your career, that bigger is better. Mm-hmm and galleries have big walls, and they like to have big artworks on big walls.

 

Host Blue Lucine (43:29):

So you may as well fill the space.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (43:30):

So you may as well fill the space and you may as well get, go as large as you physically and economically can, can afford to go. And that can happen. That can always happen. It just, I'm waiting on my invitation from the several institutions on this continent that still won't step up to the plate and take on board my messages. Mm. So, but back to the substance of the paintings for the listeners, you know, there's the, there's always a big sun or a big moon, which is grandfather, grandmother spirits. Then there's an arid landscape based on Papanya. You'll always see a, a mountain range, like the MacDonnell ranges, then there's big blue sky, and then there's a vanishing road, uh, or some kind of vanishing path. And, and don't forget to add the flat bottom clouds, which are all cryptic metaphors to keep people entertained, but, and then you stick something in the foreground and call that a modern Aboriginal painting.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (44:29):

But, um, it's very hard to push this stuff. They like to pigeonhole. They like to box tick. They like to have their palatable select group of artists that they keep in a family in a, in a little incubator. It's extremely hard to, um, penetrate that control of the gatekeepers that are controlling Aboriginal art. It is a matter of time. I hope for that to all change and to have absolute diversity and an absolute appreciation for the artist of the Southeast region being represented in their own major institution, as opposed to what is happening with the influx of APY lands art and the desperation that exists for remote region Aboriginal communities in terms of longevity and survival, I think is incredibly sad that we have to rely on the great artworks coming out of those communities, uh, as the saviour for those communities, rather than the federal government or the mining companies stepping up as they are going to be held accountable for many years to come to improve the amenities for those communities. And so, you know, how dare they make these, these gorgeous senior lore women, um, slave away on a fucking 20 by 30 meter canvas. So the white people at the Art Gallery of New South Wales can toast champagne and celebrate the, uh, continuation in inverted commas of Aboriginal culture and proper Aboriginal culture.

 

Host Blue Lucine (46:11):

Yes, as long as it fits with their guidelines.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (46:16):

I'd certainly like to add that from where I come from, what I've seen, particularly, if you go north, you never see a neighbouring language group performing a welcome to country on other people's land. And so that's the difference. That's a differentiates, um, bonafide tribalism and cultural lore, L O R E to this melting pot of shenanigans that take place now in Sydney. And I really hope that in my lifetime that I see this change and I see it reverted back to how it really should be. And that is the Aboriginal people from their own place, delivering a welcome to country. And, um, if that doesn't happen here, then we're not gonna have the commensurate change in art that sees that only cultural authoritarians can operate on this land who are from this place.

 

Host Blue Lucine (47:15):

And I'm just, I'm just thinking Blak, if there are any, and hopefully there are lots of, um, young Indigenous artists listening. What's some words of, of advice that you wanna give them

 

Guest Blak Douglas (47:30):

Young Indigenous artists, um, don't paint dots for a start just because you think it's what done mm-hmm and it's what Nanna said that you should paint.

 

Host Blue Lucine (47:40):

Think outside The dot

 

Guest Blak Douglas (47:40):

Think outside the dot and, um, and don't just join the dots mm-hmm and, um, you need to dig as far back as you can into your own family's, um, tribal existence and try and produce something from there. And if that means that, um, you want to, uh, exhibit bird nests from your Tribal Homeland as an artwork, do that as, as opposed to painting dots, because, um, your, it might be a tough sell in the early days. It's, it's always tough trying to be an originator and to forward your own style, you can take that from me, but you need to do something, anything other than the tokenistic things that have been done for too long in art here today,

 

Host Blue Lucine (48:33):

What do you see in the future? What are you kind of working towards?

 

Guest Blak Douglas (48:38):

I'm working on leaving the sandpit in the, in the daycare center. Okay. Which I refer to as Australian art and, um, taking the training wheels off my little bike that the establishment insists that I keep riding, and I'm going to ride on one wheel on the back wheel all the way to New York.

 

Host Blue Lucine (49:00):

Oh. So you're gonna do a wheelie or unicycle. I'm gonna

 

Guest Blak Douglas (49:03):

Do wheelie all the way there, wheelie. Got it. And, um, and I'm going to become the next big thing from Dhungatti Nation in New York.

 

Host Blue Lucine (49:14):

Blak Douglas. It has been an absolute pleasure having you on here, We The city. Thank you so much for joining me.

 

Guest Blak Douglas (49:21):

Thank you for having me

 

Host Blue Lucine (49:38):

We The City is a Jerboa Production hosted by me, Blue Lucine. The City of Sydney is our principal partner, and we thank the creative grants program. This episode was produced by Blue Lucine, and Tegan Nicholls with original music by Matt Cornell. We, The city is recorded on Gadigal land. Sovereignty was never ceded.